The New Rules of Booking Weddings: What Couples Want From Vendors Now With Adrienna McDermott

0:00:00 – Heidi Thompson
Couples just plain don’t trust wedding professionals right now, and in this episode we’re talking about what you can do about that so you can build trust and book more weddings.

0:00:13 – Intro
In a world where wedding professionals are struggling to market and grow their businesses, one podcast brings together top experts and actionable strategies to help you build the wedding business of your dreams. This is the Evolve your Wedding Business Podcast. Here is your host, Heidi Thompson.

0:00:44 – Heidi Thompson
Hello there, my friend. My name is Heidi Thompson. I am your host, as always, and I am all about helping wedding professionals just like you make your marketing easier so you can book more weddings and build a business that gives you freedom and flexibility. And I don’t know about you, but I have definitely seen that couples are more skeptical than ever right now. There’s a lot of distrust. They are overwhelmed with options. They are burned out from doing way too much research, too much scrolling. They are struggling to figure out who they can actually trust to deliver what they want for their wedding day, because they have all read a horror story. They have all seen the Reddit posts. They’ve all seen the Facebook posts. Maybe they’ve even known someone that had something go horribly wrong. There was a lot of this that happened during COVID. A lot of companies just shut down. People got completely screwed and if your marketing isn’t actively building trust and making them feel safe and confident in hiring you, they’re going to move on to someone that does so.

In this episode, I’m joined by my friend, Adrienna McDermott, who I adore, and she’s so brilliant with this. She is bringing in what is working in wedding vendor marketing right now and she has gone into some serious deep dives with. You know bride groups, wedding groups, couple groups where people are talking about this and they’re sharing not just what they’ve experienced, but what they’re thinking and how they’re reacting to it. So in this episode, we’re talking about how couple behavior has changed. We’re going to talk about why traditional marketing really is not cutting it anymore and how you can show up in a way that builds connection and credibility from before they ever even contact you.

If you have felt like your marketing is falling flat, you’re attracting the wrong people. It feels like pulling teeth to get people to commit to booking you. This episode is going to help you understand why and what to do instead. So let’s get into this interview with Adriana. She has dug up so much incredible data on this. You are going to love it. Today. I am so excited to be joined by Adrienna McDermott to talk about a topic that she and I have been talking about quite a lot lately, and that is trust in the wedding industry and what she has been seeing happening behind the scenes among couples. So, Adrienna, I am very excited to have you here and to dig into this topic.

0:03:44 – Adrienna McDermott
Me too. I know you and I, like you said, we talk about a lot of this offline and I think we’re at the stage where, after you and I talking about it for a year and seeing it shift so loudly, it’s like okay, I think we need to have an actual conversation around this.

0:04:00 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, so let’s dig right into it. What are you seeing right now when it comes to trust, or the lack thereof, in the wedding industry, among couples?

0:04:14 – Adrienna McDermott
So there’s, I think, a lot of things that kind of got us to the stage. First of all, obviously we can’t ignore the fact that we had a pandemic that upheld our industry. I mean, while we are years out from it, we have to remember that everyone at first, everyone knew someone who had to postpone a wedding, who had a bad experience. There were bad apples. I mean, to this day, if you go into a subreddit or Facebook group, there are still photographers behind because they overbooked themselves from the boom, right. So the pandemic really put us in this uncomfortable situation. And then we went from pandemic to this huge boom and the thing was everyone then overbooked themselves, which meant that their customer experience was not great. So people were behind on photos. They were not showing up for events on time.

This narrative online has just been like what the heck is happening? And like why don’t vendors get it? And I think as vendors, we can be really stuck in our little bubble and not actually listen to what the couples are actively saying, and that’s not how any business outside of the industry should run Like. When you run a business, you should know what your consumer business is saying about you, and whenever I bring up online and I screenshot something from Reddit. People are always in shock that couples are complaining online about us and I’m like, yeah, because they have reasons.

So I think it’s just been kind of the pandemic put it in a bad light. And then the boom put us in a bad light because so many people entered the space, tripled their pricing but didn’t triple the client experience, and so we’re kind of in this just uneasy stage and I think it’s also this access to information and research, which I know we’ll talk about a bit more, has just kind of amplified the noise of what the couples are saying, and I think for the last decade we’ve kind of ignored what the couples have to say and I really think we have to get into an industry where we’re listening and we’re understanding what we can do to make it better where we’re listening and we’re understanding what we can do to make it better.

0:06:07 – Heidi Thompson
I totally agree with you there, and it’s been so interesting to hear the things that you have found, the experiences that people have had. If you had to categorize these sorts of posts, conversations, complaints into different groups Maybe there’s a couple categories that you see popping up what would they be?

0:06:32 – Adrienna McDermott
So definitely one of the biggest things has got to be price transparency. They’re asking for it, they’re demanding it, and they’re not just asking for and demanding it, they’re controlling the narrative of our pricing now, and what I mean by that is they are crowdsourcing your pricing, putting it on spreadsheets and putting it in the public and what that does.

0:06:55 – Heidi Thompson
I think that’s shocking for a lot of people to hear.

0:06:58 – Adrienna McDermott
Yeah, yeah, so there’s quite a few. There’s one online project that is by people getting married for venue pricing because they were sick of venues not giving them pricing. So there’s a website you can go on where people crowdsource pricing for venues. There was recently a TikTok where a girl in Chicago posted pricing of photographers and there was an uproar. If you go into Reddit and you type in any of the top 30, 40 planners photographers their pricing is now on Reddit big budget brides and other Reddits and while vendors can get frustrated, we kind of shot ourselves in the foot doing it, because if you’re not going to show your pricing, you’re not going to be able to control the narrative, and a lot of the uproar whenever I talk about this is well, that pricing is incorrect. That’s my last year pricing. Well, that’s what the couples are seeing because you didn’t control the narrative, like you didn’t post your most recent pricing. So that’s what’s happening. So definitely, I would say the first one is just, we have to unlift that veil of price transparency.

0:08:01 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, the price transparency in our industry I have had beef with since day one, because I do just think, in general shitty behavior to gatekeep pricing, especially because I don’t know why, I don’t know where this idea came from in our industry that if someone asks about pricing, they are trying to get the lowest price.

No, you have to know the price of an item, whether it’s, you know, a coffee mug or a house, in order to budget for it, in order to make decisions around it, and I think millennials were pretty strong with you know. No, this is ridiculous. I’m just not going to inquire if you’re going to be weird and gatekeep pricing and there are ways to present your pricing in a way that puts it into context and makes it feel like, okay, yeah, that’s worth what this person is giving me. But I think now, especially with Gen Z, they are not accepting this and I don’t think they should have to. I really don’t think any industry should be withholding this information, seemingly for no good reason, and I mean, some people may disagree with me on that, but I feel like if you can’t clearly communicate and present your price in a way that makes it feel worth it, that’s kind of on you and you need to fix that.

0:09:36 – Adrienna McDermott
Yeah, and I think I just want to talk about this narrative that high-end couples don’t have budgets.

0:09:41 – Heidi Thompson
Yes.

0:09:42 – Adrienna McDermott
Okay, I am literally pulling up my phone and I have screenshots within the last week on a subreddit for big budgets, because people talk about their money on subreddits because it’s anonymous when they have million dollar budgets. Hi there, hoping you have recommendations for wedding planners that can work with a 200 to $350,000 budget. Okay, guys, they’re using the word budget this one, our total budget for our wedding is $600,000 to $750,000. And they’re looking for specific property venues, what is in our price range. Like another one. They have a million dollar budget and they use the word budget. We are very lucky to work with a sizable budget, but we are trying to look for a planner that is capable and experienced for full service planning. Here’s a list of our priorities. Guys, they are actively using that word Like. They are priced shopping with a million dollars. So I don’t understand this narrative of like. Just because they have a $500,000 budget, they still don’t have a budget. Like this is coming from their mouth. What?

0:10:44 – Heidi Thompson
is happening. Budget Like this is coming from their mouth, like what is happening. Yeah, I don’t know where that word like somehow got a bad rap and transformed into cheap. But budget is just like the projected amount or the amount set aside for anything Like oh, this is my vacation budget. You know, this is my wedding budget. This is oh, this is my vacation budget. You know, this is my wedding budget. This is how much I’m willing to spend it. If you have a million dollars, you want to make sure you’re spending it to your priorities, to fit your needs.

0:11:15 – Adrienna McDermott
Exactly, yeah, and so I think that narrative of around, even if they have a million dollars, they’re still going to look for someone in their price point, whether that’s 30, 40, 50, they just want to know are you five, are you 50?, are you 100? Like you know, and that’s where I think you know there are, like you said, there are so many different ways, because we work on copy for clients all the time. There are ways we can discuss numbers because I understand where all artists are. Pricing varies, heidi, I know you and I as business owners. You can pay me a $500, you can pay me 15,000. You still have. There’s still ways we can communicate right, like. So it’s just in communicating that investment is not a bad thing, because you’re going to be missing out to those who are communicating and again you’re going to have the narrative controlled by people that you don’t want to control it.

0:12:04 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, and I really want to call attention to you know of anyone who has a business, maybe a floral design, maybe catering, maybe stationary. Where it depends, the price depends on a lot of factors. You can still give an indication of pricing. One of my clients is a stationery designer and on her stationery service page she tells you the typical spend for someone who is having I think it’s 100 guests, and then you know it ranges from here to here depending on customizations. That’s all people are asking for. That’s all people need to know. That’s all people need to know. Like they just need to know are they walking into a $2,000 kind of conversation? Are they walking into a $20,000 conversation? Neither is right or wrong. It’s just you need to be prepared and you’re going to get really unqualified leads if you don’t do that.

0:13:04 – Adrienna McDermott
Exactly, and, like you mentioned, like for stationery, it’s like it could be a per guest price, like they just want to know in general, is it within their range and that’s it, and then you can customize it.

0:13:20 – Heidi Thompson
You know, like it’s like, just because you put the number on your website does not mean that’s what every proposal is. Yeah, it doesn’t become like an online shop where it’s like it’s definitely going to be that price. I think it. I just think it’s really strange what our industry has done with pricing in the name of well, I’ll get them on the call and then somehow I can like seemingly like strong on them into making a decision which I feel like is what’s been historically taught. And it’s like A no, that’s not gonna work. And B that’s a terrible experience for the person who makes it to the call, the person who makes it to the website and doesn’t book a call because they assume they can’t afford you, but they actually can. Like nobody’s having a good time here.

0:14:10 – Adrienna McDermott
Yeah, no, exactly, and it, like you said, it makes it uncomfortable and awkward and, like I know, and we also have to remember, like you said, like there’s different generations getting married, the whole sales funnel is kind of shifting. Like we just have to kind of future-proof our business.

0:14:31 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, yeah, and I think that is incredibly important. I think what it does too is it erodes trust. If you’re not going to tell me how much something is, I’m going to assume you’re hiding something. You’re going to kind of bait and switch me, you’re going to wait for me to name a number and then you’re just going to go with that number Like it feels very disingenuous and like untrustworthy, which I think is really the point we’re at, is this lack of trust 100%. So price transparency is huge. What else are you seeing?

0:15:04 – Adrienna McDermott
So another big shift is that goes around. Trust is just that research phase. I think the research phase is a crucial element of this trust. Now we know I don’t think I’ve had a single client not admit this referrals don’t book like they used to, and it’s just simply. We’re in a world where we have to do research. So statistically, it’s Gen Z and millennials. So 70% of Gen Z and 69% of millennials only trust a brand after carrying out their own research, and this is not just for weddings. This is like, literally, you’re gonna go buy. I use this analogy all the time. Like when I was remodeling my kitchen and we were looking for faucets. Like we were in the like aisle of Lowe’s, my husband and I looking were looking for faucets. Like we were in the like aisle of Lowe’s, my husband and I looking at reviews of faucets.

0:15:50 – Heidi Thompson
I do that.

0:15:50 – Adrienna McDermott
I totally do and like, so it’s not unusual, right Like you, as a consumer, are doing it. So why do we think couples don’t do it for weddings? It is just like any other purchase. They have to do their own research. It is expensive, even regardless of your price point luxury, low, like it doesn’t matter, it is an expense. They’re going to Google you and so they’re going to want to see things that come up consistently for you, whether it’s testimonials like consistent, you know visuals throughout stuff. They’re just obsessed with wanting to learn more, and if we’re not giving them anything to learn, then again, where are they going to get that information? They’re going to go to third-party websites that you complain about, get the info and then call it a day. So it’s just like they have to do this research. Even if they have a planner, they’re going to do the research regardless.

0:16:40 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, and I mean I’m even thinking about instances in my own life where I’ve asked someone that I trust for a recommendation or a referral for a service, and when I was looking for a new accountant, I did this. I didn’t just go with who people said, I immediately went and started researching them. I sent them an initial inquiry and asked about a few different things, and then I made decisions based on their response. Like there was one, and I asked like okay, so how do you manage your documents? Like, what is your basically your protocol for doing this securely? And they were like oh, we just email them.

I was like nope, absolutely not. I will not be working with someone who’s going to be emailing my tax documents to me. So that person came to me through a referral. I know someone that works with that person and I think in previous generations, previous years, I might have just worked with them, but I had, you know, a criteria basically that I was making this decision on, and the referral didn’t fit. I wound up going with someone that I found on my own.

0:18:04 – Adrienna McDermott
And that happens a lot and it’s something that, like you said, we do it as consumers. So our couples are going to be doing the same thing, right, like they’re going to be getting this list of referrals from their friends, their family, their uncle and their whatever, and then they’re going to Google, they’re going to do research and, like you said a lot of times, they’re going to do that initial inquiry right away to get a feel. They want to know. Are you going to reply fast? What is the process? What happens? Like? These are questions they’re subconsciously asking.

So if you get an inquiry and you reply 10 days later, that person’s gone. They have picked someone else, you have lost them as a lead. So it’s like they’re looking for someone and then, like you said, they might realize, oh, this isn’t the right fit based off these criteria, and that’s okay, but they’re gonna have to research and they’re gonna have to reach out, I think, to more options than they used to before. I know, a few years ago, like even when I got married, I probably only reached out to like five photographers, but if I was getting married today, I’d probably reach out to 10. Yeah, out of sheer like, why not you?

0:19:08 – Heidi Thompson
know, and it’s interesting because we can probably all see this in ourselves in the way we behave as a consumer. But, like you said, we get into this like bubble as the business owner, where we’re disconnected from that. And to your point about you know they’re going to do a lot of research. I would love to hear you know what can people do to build trust at that point, because you do have influence over what they find when they’re researching you. If you know you take your opportunity, like you said, to control the narrative.

0:19:48 – Adrienna McDermott
Absolutely so. I mean, one of the first, easiest things is to just think about what is the content that I’m putting out there and is it consistent? And what I don’t mean by that is like am I posting Instagram twice a day? I’m meaning like. Am I using the same narrative throughout? Am I having the same messaging going out through all my platforms? Like, is it clear when they go to my Instagram and when they go to my website and when they go to my inbox and the emails, is it clear? It’s the same person?

We see that disconnect all the time. And just think about again you as a consumer. If you were looking for something online and everything sounded different on every single platform, you’re going to get really confused and you’re going to be like it’s not the same person. So even something as like is my messaging the same? Like, is the voice the same and am I talking about the same things? Like am I talking about doing these exquisite tented weddings? But then my copy is all about like, diy, like. That is a disconnect, right.

So what are things that we can do to connect them is to just kind of do a review. I always tell people have someone outside the industry, look at your stuff. Like don’t have a wedding industry friend, look at any of your stuff. They’re too biased. Like have someone who knows nothing about what you do and ask them if it sounds like you or it sounds like your business or even like, what does it feel like when you read this? Because if they’re like, oh, this sounds like really casual and you’re like that’s not my brand, well then there you go. That’s why you’re getting all the inquiries. Who are being super casual, so that’s kind of. I think step one is like what is the stuff we’re putting out there and is it sounding consistent?

0:21:27 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, I’m glad you clarified consistency as not a frequency but a tone topic. You know the things that we’re putting out there, the visuals, like does it actually look and feel like it’s from the same person? And you’re so right when you get that vibe of like why does this sound so different? It just instantly puts you on guard.

0:21:53 – Adrienna McDermott
Yeah, exactly, and it’s that initial like the minute you give someone a pause, they’re gone. Like that’s just how it is as a buyer. I think another thing is to lean so much more in the testimonials and social proof. The amount of I mean you know this, heidi, the amount of times you work with a client and you’re like I, you’ve never posted a review on Instagram. You’ve never. You have no reviews on your website. Like, we have to be transparent with that right. Like they want to see testimonials, they want to see social proof. So make it a core part of your strategy.

And I get asked all the time well, I only have five reviews. I don’t care. Share that same review every month. No one’s going to notice a difference. Like, cut that review up, put snippets. Like make it a core part of your strategy so that when they look at you online, they are constantly reminded how great you are. Because I know, as an artist, y’all are going to be like I don’t like to talk about myself. Yeah, none of us do. We’re all artists. I get it. If you’re not going to brag about yourself, who is, seriously, who’s going to brag for you? Like, have your testimonials brag for you. Like, have your testimonials, brag for you. Stop hiding them.

0:22:55 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, I think too. Something I see a lot is people kind of sequestering their testimonials, like they only exist on a testimonials page or they only exist on a services page and they don’t exist across the website. They don’t exist on social media, and I think we got to get a little bit better about like sprinkling them everywhere.

0:23:21 – Adrienna McDermott
Absolutely. Do not hide them on a single page. It will not be viewed very often, it? No, it has to be sprinkled because think about it If you were shopping let’s say you’re shopping for a pair of shoes and there were no reviews and you had to go to a separate tab you would never go to that other tab to look for the review. Ever in a million years.

So your couples are not going to go to a separate tab, like they want it to be filtered in throughout. And if you don’t have them filtered in throughout, you know what they’re thinking. Oh, they don’t have any reviews.

0:23:47 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, exactly, it’s very easy to come to that assumption. Yeah, what about educational content? I know you know that is a great way to showcase expertise, to showcase what you can do for someone. I think a lot of people get stuck in this loop of just posting their kind of portfolio content and not doing any educational content. Where do you see the role of that?

0:24:18 – Adrienna McDermott
So so, big Guys again, if you’re not educating them, who is? So we got to educate them. And the thing with blogging I mean we if you’re familiar with my business, you know I talk about blogging way too much. But like, truly, you can book high-end weddings through blogs. Anyone who tells you is lying, because my clients do it all the time. So, like, you can book big budget clients, small budget clients, every client, through blog copy, and it’s not just for the SEO.

Yes, part of a blog strategy and education is SEO should be number one. But the other thing is also I want you to think about how can you again control the narrative of working with you. So, for example, let’s say a discovery call. Y’all no one knows what that means. Like, if I asked my husband what a discovery call is, he’d be like I don’t know. Like couples don’t know what that means. They don’t understand. Does that mean you get on a video call? How long is the call? Are you asking questions? Are they asking questions Because you know what happens is they go to Reddit and they ask? And if they’re asking internet strangers, that’s because you’re not providing them answers. Make it easier for them to understand.

Create content that educates them on the experience of working with you. Create things that stand out, educational topics that target your ideal audience, like the type of venues, the type of weddings they want, the type of things they’re looking for, and make sure you’re using that throughout the sales process. Like, if you have a discovery call blog, have that be part of your sales process. Have it be like hey, I know you’re probably like looking for what the next step is. Here’s the next step. I have a whole post. It explains all the details of what it’s going to be like. The questions you should come in, the questions we’re going to ask how long it lasts. Like that way they’re again, they’re comfortable and they’re feeling educated and they feel again, if they’re comfortable, they’re going to trust you more. Because imagine what a standout process is is it is if you’re the one guiding them versus someone who’s like I don’t know, just hop on a call with me guys.

We got to remember that. So, like, look at things that you do and think of what are ways that I can explain my process if I’m a florist? What are ways that I can educate on design trends, especially if you’re trying to create really out there trends, like, talk about that. Look at your reviews, like, what are things that you are constantly getting raved about in your reviews? What are topics that you are constantly getting raved about in your reviews? What are topics that you could create around that to brag about it a bit. So, for example, we worked with a catering company and a venue and when we were trying to come up with, you know, unique blog topics for SEO, but also their experience, we went to the reviews, of course, and they talked.

A lot of people talked about their mixologists and how they could have a lot of really cool experiences with their food and drink that they didn’t think was possible. So you better bet part of their education for social and blog was around that A, we could use the review and blog, like you know, use the review and like rave about our own services. And B, it was an interesting mix Instead of just being like top five cocktails for fall. We wanted to make sure we talked about how, like we do food and wine pairings, and then also did a separate blog on how we had non-alcoholic non-alcohol like drinks. So again, take the stuff that you’re good at and turn that into the education you provide and show off.

0:27:29 – Heidi Thompson
I love that. It’s so much simpler than a lot of us think it needs to be, you know.

0:27:34 – Adrienna McDermott
Exactly, yeah, like what are you known for and you want to be known for?

0:27:38 – Heidi Thompson
Start talking about that this world over the last I don’t know five or so years of setting expectations, making people really clear on what the process is going to be, what’s going to happen next. Because if there’s something humans don’t like, it’s uncertainty, it’s not knowing. Like you know, we’ve all had that situation of like, wait a minute, did that order go through? Like, is food going to show up at my house or is it not? You know, and where is it? All of these apps that we have have tracking, our shipping has tracking, and it is to address that human need for, okay, what happens next, okay, what’s going to happen tomorrow, what’s going to happen the next day. And I think we can bring so much more of that into our businesses in the wedding industry and letting them know, because, I mean, I can’t really think of an industry that has a more clueless in the fact that they’ve probably never done this before Consumer base. You know, they don’t know what to expect. They are just spending a bunch of money and hoping for the best.

0:29:04 – Adrienna McDermott
And then they’re going online and asking, like, what do I do next? So it’s like we need to do the right thing. Yeah, because we want to know.

0:29:09 – Heidi Thompson
We need to know, like, what happens next, what should happen next, and you taking control of that.

0:29:15 – Adrienna McDermott
Not only does that build trust, but, oh my god, does that create a wonderful customer experience absolutely and to you know, going back into kind of that messaging and like that’s such a core part of it is is to make sure that you are giving them the type of you know, experience that is calibrated to your brand. Like, especially, so many people want to up-level and increase pricing and it’s like whenever you do that then you have to shift kind of and make sure you’re giving more education, almost in a way right, because the more someone spends, the more they have to trust you and if we’re not creating that sense of trust between us and the client, then they’re not going to want to spend more money with you just because you raised your prices.

0:29:58 – Heidi Thompson
It’s kind of funny when you look at just the business world on the whole and the way that you know like mega corporations build trust, have this consistency. You walk into a Starbucks, a McDonald’s, a Holiday Inn anywhere on the planet. You know what kind of experience you’re going to have, you know how it’s going to work and those are significantly lower ticket things that they’re buying.

0:30:29 – Adrienna McDermott
Yeah, and it’s like you said. It’s like I think we have to also start running our businesses like a business and a brand. You know, instead of just being like I’m a wedding planner, it’s like no, you’re creating an experience, a wedding experience. You’re running a business, you’re not just a planner photographer. Like you’re running a business. So start to think about that.

Like there’s a reason why these companies that are successful put money into that experience, into that consistency, so that way, like their fonts are never going to be inconsistent, right, like you’re never going to go to a Ritz Carlton and like expect anything to be off. That’s the type of experience you need to be building for your business. Is that, yes, you can trust me because I am showing up, I’m showing consistently, I’m showing testimonials, I’m walking you through the steps, I’m being price transparent, I’m replying to you in an orderly fashion. I’m thinking about ways to increase that experience working with you. You know, instead of just like showing them pictures, being like this is how I transform this space if it’s a photographer, instead of just being like these are venues I shoot at, be like, no, I’m an expert at posing you at these venues, right, like I’m an expert at this. Take ownership of that.

0:31:40 – Heidi Thompson
I really like that claiming your space and owning it, and the more you talk about consistency, the more I mean. I never really thought about this, but it is the foundation of trust, of knowing you can rely on anybody. It’s because you know that person and that person has a consistent way of being. Either they’re on top of things or they’re scatterbrained. They are, you know, going to answer the phone or they’re not going to answer the phone, even just things like that. Like we have those consistent people that we look to in our lives and this is really not that different.

0:32:22 – Adrienna McDermott
No, no, it’s not, and I think it’s when we can, and I think it’s something really good to like take a seat back and look at your business as a whole and think about am I communicating trust through various ways, even thinking about through the imagery of our website, like, are we, you know, showing the type of imagery that’s you know, showcasing whether it’s diversity or inclusion or ways of you know, I really want to focus on more candid moments. Okay, well, if all of your photos are superposed like that’s again, that’s a narrative, right? You’re like building the wrong narrative and you’re attracting the wrong narrative. So it’s kind of just like taking a look at all of these pieces and thinking about is this communicating what I want my audience to be hearing?

0:33:08 – Heidi Thompson
I think that’s a really good way of thinking about it is controlling the narrative Like, what experience do you want to craft for someone and making sure that all of these pieces really uphold that. I think that’s a helpful way to be able to step back and look at it. I know in a lot of the things you found, delays delays in the work, delays in responses and communication have come up. Can you tell us a little bit about what you found there?

0:33:44 – Adrienna McDermott
Oh gosh, y’all ghost more than you act like it. Let’s just say that for every vendor that says couples ghost them, there’s 700 couples saying nah, man, you ghost us. So, yes, so a lot of things is definitely. One is definitely people being behind still, Like I literally saw on a Facebook group I think it was yesterday was someone was like six months behind and they probably paid like $8,000 for photos and they were six months behind, Like again, you cannot run a business like that. You have to figure yourself out. Now our couples are thinking of photographers are always going to be behind. So people being behind. We’re also seeing a lot of um conflict around, like not understanding the way certain things are packaged and priced. So, for example, if you’re a percentage-based, they don’t understand that, because no one explains percentage-based pricing for some reason.

It’s like this weird secret sauce that we have like back-end menu, and I think we need to stop acting like it’s a back-end menu. I think we need to be talking about percentage-based pricing, if that’s what you offer, and actually controlling it. Because if you go into big budget brides the amount of what I’m literally looking at it right now people are talking about like, oh my, my pricing is increasing in the their percentage, and I don’t understand how this works. And it’s like oh man, did they not explain it to you? And I think it’s also just like this. I’m trying to think sorry, I’m just looking through. I have, you know, 700 screenshots on my phone, but just a few. Yeah, I think it’s also.

What I think has been really interesting that I’ve seen in the online space is that people are like wanting again others to help them make decisions, which I think is really fascinating. I think that for a while, couples just made decisions on their own and now they’re like crowdsourcing decisions. Like if you go on a Reddit right now, they literally are posting two different planners. They’re not listing their names, which is nice, but they’re literally putting option A pros and cons, option B pros and cons, and people are commenting which one to book.

0:35:55 – Heidi Thompson
Oh, wow.

0:35:56 – Adrienna McDermott
They are wanting other people’s opinions and other people’s ideas, and I think that’s something that we have to remember. Also, negotiation my last thought.

0:36:10 – Heidi Thompson
So when you say negotiation, do you mean like there’s a disconnect there or they aren’t understanding it?

0:36:20 – Adrienna McDermott
A lot of people have been asking more about is it okay to negotiate than I think I’ve ever seen before. And I think part of yeah, and it’s not surprising because everyone tripled their pricing this year, so obviously they’re having like whoa money shock. But I think it’s also something that we need to realize that in a lot of different cultures and even just at higher price points, negotiation is not an unusual part of the process, and so I see a lot of people who are like can I negotiate? And couples are like yeah, my vendors all negotiated. So I don’t know how I feel about that negotiation tactic. That’s a whole thing, but they are thinking about it more because everything costs so much more.

And, guys, I think it’s going to keep happening in the next year or so. I think we’re going to as prices increase and as we increase our prices, I think we’re going to have to start. We’re going to see more people negotiate and I’m not necessarily sure if it’s a red flag, because it just seems to be a bit more normalized online lately. I would say the last four months I’ve been seeing that.

0:37:23 – Heidi Thompson
That’s really interesting. That’s, yeah, that’s really important to realize that if someone is coming into a conversation and they want to negotiate, that really means everything’s on the table. So it doesn’t mean you have to just accept a lower price. It could be you cut some things out of the service to do it at a lower price, so it actually aligns. So I just want people to keep that in mind, like it doesn’t necessarily mean oh okay, I have to do the exact same thing and provide the exact same service, and put the same amount of time in when they’re not going to pay my full price.

0:38:11 – Adrienna McDermott
No, like you said, there’s ways to go about it. Where it is like, like you said, like you remove things from packages, and that’s what I’ve seen is that they understand that Couples get that. They’re not saying how do I get 10% off. They’re asking can I customize? Really, I feel like it’s almost they’re trying to see how can they customize more.

0:38:28 – Heidi Thompson
That makes sense and I think, depending. It’s funny like I feel like there are very different emotions around the word customize to negotiate, and if someone is coming at you with negotiate, it might feel like you know they just want a lower price, but really they’re coming at it in a customization viewpoint. So I think that’s a really important thing to keep in mind is like don’t just assume that.

0:38:56 – Adrienna McDermott
Absolutely. I mean even me as a business owner when someone uses that word. I’m assuming they just mean they want to understand how we can accommodate their needs in a specific package.

0:39:06 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, like how can we make this work? Not, you need to give me a discount which I get.

0:39:12 – Adrienna McDermott
It can feel like yeah for sure, and yeah, and then I think also just being aware that these things are being talked about online. And one thing I do want to touch on is because I get asked all the time okay well, does that mean I have to be on Reddit and market? No, 100%, If you’re a vendor. It’s very hard to be on Reddit as a vendor because you get downvoted to oblivion. Be there to listen and to educate and not tout your business. But I would be looking like if, like, for example, I’m on it literally right now and someone in San Francisco listed five different planners and people are commenting their thoughts on each planner. So just know that they’re having open narratives about your business, so just make sure you’re monitoring that.

0:39:52 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, I think it’s a great source of inspiration to see like where are people getting hung up, when are they frustrated and how can you address that in your own process?

0:40:03 – Adrienna McDermott
Absolutely, and just take it, yeah, and think about okay, they seem to be talking a lot about this. This is something I’m really good at and I should be talking about more, or this is a pain point that I’m seeing. I want to address it.

0:40:14 – Heidi Thompson
And I like that way of thinking about it, because I think sometimes I can feel a little bit adversarial, like they want this thing and I want this thing and we’re going to like fight it out. But you are ultimately working together on this and by addressing these things, you are improving the entire experience, which I do want to touch on a little bit. You mentioned, you know, a lot of people raise their prices and I’ve seen so many people talking about wanting to be more in the luxury space. I know this is like a whole other conversation behind, like what the hell does that word even mean? But what are you seeing there?

0:40:59 – Adrienna McDermott
Sorry, it’s just like we both know that could be a whole conversation.

0:41:02 – Heidi Thompson
Oh, we could talk about this for hours.

0:41:04 – Adrienna McDermott
Yeah, you don’t have to add me laughing that out, but yeah, I just am laughing because I’m like it’s a whole nother piece. Are you thinking like up-leveling, like client experience, that whole thing?

0:41:13 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, because I think you know we get into this idea of like well, the longer I’m in business, the more I raise my prices, without necessarily looking at what goes in conjunction with that.

0:41:26 – Adrienna McDermott
Absolutely so when it comes to kind of up-leveling your business. So whenever what we’re thinking about up-leveling and increasing pricing, it doesn’t necessarily mean like you have to be at a certain price point, and I don’t want anyone to listen to ever think that the only way to make money is the high-end weddings. Like that’s absolutely not true. I see behind the scenes of hundreds of businesses a year. Like that’s not true. You can make the same amount of money. It’s just different business structures. But when we’re getting to that stage and most of the clients we work with at my agency are at that stage where they’re like I have increased considerably, I am adding a team. I’m turning to percentage base One of the first things we ask them is what is the backend experience going to be to live up to that standard? So, for example, for photographers, when we’re starting to get into higher price points $15,000, $20,000, $25,000, going to be a lot different of high expectations.

One, they’re going to assume you have a larger team because they probably want multiple day coverage. You can no longer do that solo, right? Like you can’t do a wedding weekend by yourself. At least you shouldn’t. You’re going to give not a very good experience. So do you have a team that can accommodate those needs? Do you have a faster turnaround? The higher you charge, the faster they want their images, and it’s not just for PR or press, although if you talk to any higher, higher end who have press features figured out prior to the wedding, yeah, that means like next week, you need like 48 hour delivery, but even a few weeks. You can’t be 16 weeks and charge $25000 at some point.

Like there has things have to change. Do you have higher quality services, whether it’s albums, wall art, and do you have experience working way more directly with planners? Because the higher price point you get the least likely you are to really be in a ton of communication with them. Are you able to respond to the planner quickly, because planners are going to get real frustrated if it takes a week to get an answer from you. Are you comfortable working with second designers, a content creator, a videographer team, like that stuff you have to know as you increase your pricing.

If you’re a planner do you have a big enough team Like we have one client where they have people on staff just for guest management Like because they know that level of price point and that level of service requires that of them. It can’t just be you. It has to have more people. And that doesn’t mean necessarily the weddings get bigger, like. None of this means it’s a hundred person wedding, like they would have that guest manager. Even if it was 20 people, they would have a faster turnaround. Even if it was 20 people, they would have a faster turnaround even if it was 20 people. So are there ways you’re up-leveling that experience internally to get ready for that next step? And then, of course, you have to look at your marketing and your messaging. If you are using the same exact language that you were using for a couple, half the price, it might not align very well. Your imagery might not align, your brand might not be aligning with that new audience.

0:44:18 – Heidi Thompson
All such good points and I really like that. You’ve highlighted that this is a client experience shift. This isn’t just a price shift. It’s what you’re selling becomes different at that price point in order to be worth it to the person buying. I am really curious what you have seen in this space, where people are spending more, charging more. What are these couples saying online? What sorts of frustrations are they running into saying online? What sorts of frustrations are they running into? Like you know, I spent 20k on a photographer and this is where I’m at that.

0:44:59 – Adrienna McDermott
I’m feeling frustrated with yes, I actually can pull up one right now.

0:45:03 – Heidi Thompson
One second I love that you have like actual examples of all of these things and it’s funny because, like examples of all of these things, and it’s funny because, like people are having these conversations out in the open, it is there for all of us to dig into if we want to. I’m really happy that you have because this is really interesting, because we have to kind of guess if people aren’t telling us this stuff directly, if they aren’t complaining about things in reviews, what are the conversations that are being had. But now we can actually just go see that and especially for higher budgets, I think we always thought that was kind of hidden. No Big budget, would you say. It was big budget. Brides is the subreddit.

Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, so yeah. What are the frustrations they’re running into? Because I think this will align kind of a disconnect. Well, it will highlight a disconnect between their expectation going in what they were purchasing, what they were spending and what they were supposed to get for that price point, and what actually happened. And when those two things get out of whack, you get really I got a good one y’all.

0:46:22 – Adrienna McDermott
So this is literally one that I’m pulling up right now. So there’s a recent one on a different subreddit called Am I the B-Poll, and it is someone who hired a florist whose portfolio turned out to just be styled shoots, and so she quoted $7,500, but she couldn’t actually do all of that for $7,500. And so the final product was not at all what they thought $7,500 would get them. And then the people were like those are styled shoots. So, guys, they know what styled shoots are Like. I don’t know if that’s new news, but they’ve a hundred percent now, like in this subreddit, they’re like that’s called a styled shoot. So one publicizing again that you can’t do it Like don’t charge 10 K if you can’t deliver a 10 K result. That was an interesting one, I would say.

Another one is just simply not understanding what is included in packages. So sometimes I think vendors are way too ambiguous. So they’ll be like their final package, especially for planning, they’ll get confused. They like assumed it include this or they assumed include that. So that’s a big one. Is just people not understanding what packages, especially venues, venues are so confusing? Like what do they include and not include should be incredibly obvious, but apparently it’s the hardest thing to find right now. That’s a huge one.

And then another one that I actually think was interested was someone listed their priorities and it got a lot of upvotes.

And so this is someone who has a high end budget 120 to 150 guests. Priorities, impeccable taste and refreshing design, timely responsiveness, available on weekends because of our schedule, and again, is that going to be past some people’s boundaries Like that’s not your client? Totally fine, but also consider that they might have certain jobs where they can’t work in a nine to five schedule, and they also want a logistical ownership with multi-day events, financial acumen and manages expectations. Within my budget. That’s the one I thought was really cool was they wanted someone who was being honest with their budget, and I think sometimes as vendors, we want to offer the moon and stars and sometimes we have to be the one that tells them that moon and star is not quite what they want, and I think a lot of times we tend to be people pleasers and then I see that becomes an issue on Reddit is because they thought they were getting one item and then, of course, they did it.

0:48:51 – Heidi Thompson
I think that’s refreshing to hear that someone was actively seeking that out, because I think for a lot of vendors it can feel like, well, they want me to promise them you know the moon and the stars and then hopefully figure out a way to make it happen when really they want to manage their expectations, they want to mitigate disappointment, they want to know what they could expect, and your floral example is another great opportunity for that person to have communicated the expectation of this is what that amount of money is going to get you. What you’re seeing in this image. This would have cost this much. That simple distinguishing point of really clarifying expectations could have mitigated the entire thing.

0:49:45 – Adrienna McDermott
Absolutely, and this whole Reddit thread would have never existed. But yeah, it’s just like doing those expectations and I think also just one more going kind of back to that idea of they’re going to do their own research. It’s just knowing and accepting that they’re going to do it, like right now finding a florist, currently trying to nail down our florist and curious how you found yours. My planner has sent me recommendations, both local to our location as well as destination, but I’m having trouble deciding Advice on how to find the right florist. So that just like summarizes I feel like this whole conversation, like they’re gonna ask for advice, they’re gonna do their own research, like this is an example of someone who got referrals and was like, nah, I got to keep looking.

0:50:31 – Heidi Thompson
Yeah, and I think it highlights that need for helping them make the decision and they don’t know what to ask. And, oh my God, would that be a brilliant blog post of here’s what to look for when you’re looking for your floral designer. Here’s what to look for when you’re looking for your photographer. Do you care about this? Is this important? Of course, you can highlight yourself there and include the things that you’re really great at, but they’re actively seeking this stuff out, so you can kind of leave this stuff out in the internet like breadcrumbs for them to find.

0:51:06 – Adrienna McDermott
Awesome, yeah, no, I think it’s just it’s we gotta really think about how can we, like you said, leave those breadcrumbs for them, so that way we at least do our job to control the narrative.

0:51:19 – Heidi Thompson
I could talk to you about this all day. I have been talking to you about this for months on Instagram and will continue to, I’m sure, but if someone wants to connect with you, learn more about working with you, adriana, where should they go? Wants?

0:51:33 – Adrienna McDermott
to connect with you, learn more about working with you. Adriana, where should they go? Yes, you can come hang out with me at Ava and the Bee on Instagram, avaandthebeecom also on threads, but definitely in the DMs. Come find me. I’d love to talk to you.

0:51:44 – Heidi Thompson
Thank you so much for being here and for sharing all of your research. This is incredible. Thank you so much for having me. I can’t wait for our next conversation. Hopefully now you understand the hesitancy in the market, and I think we all had a feeling that that was happening, but hearing Adriana lay it out in this way really helped me realize exactly what was going on in the minds of couples and what that tells us about what we need to do, what we need to change to better serve them. That is only going to make it easier for you to attract and book the clients that you really want to work with. I will have all the links we discussed in the show notes to this episode over at evolveyourweddingbusinesscom, slash 306. And I would love to hear your thoughts. Did you learn something from this that you’ll implement? Is there something that you’re going to change? Send me a DM on Instagram at evolveyourweddingbusiness. I would love to hear from you and I will speak to you again very soon.